Dolly Parton in Conversation with Paramore’s Hayley Williams

Dolly Parton, we’re told, is chronically early, and despite the fact that we aren’t gathering until mid-morning, the word is that she has been awake since 3:00 a.m. When she makes her entrance, heels clicking and blue eyeliner catching the studio lights, it feels like everyone collectively holds their breath for just a beat.

One of those people is Hayley Williams of Paramore. Williams carries a welcoming warmth and self-assured ease, instantly making everyone around her feel like they’ve known her for ages. There’s also a natural camaraderie, perhaps, between people who are about to meet Dolly Parton for the first time.

The two Nashville residents share a greeting before Parton is whisked away for final preparations. Williams finally releases that breath and takes a seat. She’s well primed for the day’s events, her notebook filled with thoughtful, detailed questions about Parton’s enormous new record, Rockstar, arriving November 17th, as well as her life and career.

Parton returns and sits across from her day’s interviewer, a large silver star between them. Williams flips open her notebook and begins.

Hayley: One of my favorite things that I read about this record was that when you got nominated you were kind of like, “Oh, I don't feel like I've earned it.” And then you went and made the record. Did it really happen like that?

Dolly: It really did. Because I have so many friends in the rock business that would die to be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame – people that really spend their whole life doing that.

I'll take anything you give me in country music because I feel like I will have earned it, because I've worked my whole life in it. But I felt like this was something they voted on and I did not want to take votes away from anybody, like a Pat Benatar. You know, the girls that were in the business.

I just said I did not want to do it. It caused a bit of a controversy, and I did not want to stir up controversy. I'm always trying to keep things as calm as I can.

So anyway, they went ahead and put me in it anyhow. [Laughs] They explained why they do it – it's people's music that had influenced other people's music, or whatever. So I said, “If they put me in, I'll accept it gracefully,” but I still didn't feel like I'd earned it. And I had often talked about doing a rock album, and well, I'm also not one to miss timing. So I thought, if I'm ever gonna do it, I'm doing it now, so I can feel I earned it.

Hayley: I love that. It really speaks to how you have such a way of honoring people, and how much you believe in equity. I think about this all the time with my band — there are so many bands that are still touring in a van, touring in their cars, trying to make it. People just want to feel seen and heard.

Dolly: And appreciated for what you do. There’s people where that's their world, like country music has been mine. Although I've done covers of rock songs through the years, and I've done some rock songs on different albums and all that. But I had never said blatantly, “I've got to do it and be true to it – really do a true rock and roll album.” That was the other thing that was important to me: not to half-ass do a record that's a country girl singing some rock.

Hayley: You did it! Does Carl like it, your husband?

Dolly: Yes, Carl likes it.

Hayley: He does?! Yes!

Dolly: You know about my rockstar, my rock husband. Yeah, that's his music.

Hayley: That's amazing. Does he have a favorite?

Dolly: Well, he just was proud of me. I think he was kind of sweating it, too, that I was doing it. I'll tell you what: When you've been with somebody for 60 years, they're real honest with you. He was never cruel about it. He was so open and upfront. But to have him say that the rock album was good, he just said, “It's pretty good.” And the way he said it…

Hayley: You knew.

Dolly: I knew, yeah. That was like somebody else saying, “Wow, that is really, really cool! Dolly’s a rockstar!”

Hayley: That’s the best endorsement! Well, I love the covers. My favorite cover is “What's Up.” I think that your voice sounds so incredible on it. It feels like you could have written it, the way that your voice works with it. It's so perfect.

Dolly: Well, thank you. I always loved that song. I got to know Linda Perry — she did a little soundtrack for me when I did a movie for Netflix called Dumplin' with Jennifer Anniston.

Hayley: Yeah, I love that movie!

Dolly: That's when I got to know Linda personally. We stayed friends, and then when I got ready to do this album, I wanted to do that song, because of her. That was one of my picks. I did a lot of Carl's favorites, but I did pick a few of my own. I asked Linda if she would come sing and play on it, so she's playing guitar and singing, and that was really, really neat.

Hayley: It's a classic. And I love the message of it; it feels really true to your path, so that was my favorite moment in terms of the covers. I think my favorite of the originals is “My Blue Tears.” I love that.

Dolly: Well, that's a song I wrote when I was a young girl.

Hayley: Are you kidding?

Dolly: You'll find this interesting — you know Goldie Hawn?

Hayley: Yes.

Dolly: When Goldie was on a show called Laugh In, a thousand years ago, well, she was so hot. You know how anytime you're a star, everybody wants to do an album with you? She did an album and she did “My Blue Tears.”

It was a song that I had recorded back in the late ‘60s, early ‘70s. So she did it, and then I did it a time or two myself, because Carl loved the song. That's one of the reasons I did it again; that's one of the songs that I wrote that he'd made a comment on. I did it with the trio, with Linda [Rondstandt] and Emmylou [Harris], too.

And so, I thought, “I'm going to add a big production thing at the end of it and put it in the rock album.” Do one of those big rock ballads that I wanted to do, and had Simon Le Bon sing on it with me. Thank you for loving that one.

Hayley: Of course. I didn't know any of that history. Now I’ve gotta go back and dig it all up.

Dolly: It's just one of those songs that you think it never really got its just due. And if this don't do it, I may record it again sometime. Maybe you can record it.

Hayley: Maybe I will! The lyrics are so beautiful. I really love when you paint pictures that are of nature. “Wildflowers” is another incredible one, and I just think you're so good at it because it's such your real life, and you really feel that.

I wrote a whole record, while in a very dark depression, essentially coming from this vision of having died and flowers growing out of me. But it was not a beautiful experience, it was more of a painful experience to go through.

Dolly: Yeah, that’s your Flowers for Vases.

Hayley: Oh, my… What? How do you know this?! [delightful screams]

Dolly: Well, you ain’t the only one done your homework, girl. And that’s a beautiful [album], by the way.

Hayley: Wow — well, thanks.

Hayley: I'm also really impressed with the song “World on Fire.” I think it’s in such stark contrast to other songs that might be vaguely political or a lamentation on humanity and how divided everyone feels.

I was really struggling with that while we were writing our record. I didn't really feel like there needed to be another protest song, necessarily. I think there's other people that probably do it better than me. I felt like reading the lyrics and listening to the song, you did a really good job of saying how you feel about it and also just observing from a place of like, “This is such shit.” Like, where we're at is so sad.

Dolly: It is. It's crazy. And you feel helpless. I'm not political; as I said before, I don’t like controversy. I try to just speak my heart, speak my truth, speak my mind, and do it as gentle as I can. But well, my best weapon and my best tool is my writing.

I had finished the rock album, and I had done 30 songs, not meaning to do it. I kept recording, and so one day Kent Wells – who produced the album and did a great job, by the way – he said, “Dolly, you gotta stop. You can't record every damn rock ‘n’ roll song that's ever been out.” And so I said, “Okay, we're done.”

So I go home that very night, and I'm in bed. I woke up in the wee hours, like I had a force that just pulled me out. And I thought, “Why am I so wide awake right now?” I just felt like I needed to be doing something, I didn't know what. But I went to the kitchen and made my coffee – poured my cup of ambition, if you will.

Hayley: Yes!

Dolly: And all of a sudden, that song just started coming to me. And I thought, “Now, I’m supposed to write this song.” So, I called Kent the next morning and I said, “I know we're supposed to be done, but I've got one more we've got to do.” And he said, “Oh, we can't call a session for one song.” I said, “Yes, we can. Let me come down and sing it to you.” And [I did, and] he said, “Yes, we can.”

I think it's one of the most powerful things on the record. Everybody said, “Dolly’s getting political,” because I said, “Don't get me started on politics. How are we to live in a world like this? Greedy politicians, present and past, wouldn't know the truth if it bit 'em in their” astronomical egos, so to speak.

But I could have just said, “Leaders of the world, present and past, you better make a change and you better do it fast.” That's what I was trying to say. We got to really get together or we're just gonna just go to hell or heaven in a handbasket.

Hayley: Yeah, I know. The two party system doesn't seem to be serving anyone.

Dolly: It's not about just a party. It ain't all just about the politics; it’s the way people are with their hate and love and division. But politics has not helped it any.

Hayley: No. I mean, when the pandemic happened, in a way I was more emboldened to be more vocal about the things that I felt, but I also felt very paralyzed too, because I knew that even if I said everything that I felt, which I have done on Instagram or Twitter, it doesn't do much. It might make a headline or clickbait for a week or two and then, you know, someone on Fox News hates me for a month.

But it doesn't do much in the way of action and really making a difference. And that's so frustrating for me because I want to stand by my own convictions and I want to try and make a difference. But I mostly just want people to feel loved and welcome, especially at a show.

I think it’s a testament to the years that you've been working really hard to stand by your convictions that you've also found a way to make people feel welcome. I think that that does more in the way of potentially inviting change, inviting conversation. I'm not quite as good at staying out of controversy. I get this sort of righteous rage, and I feel like in that moment, words might do something.

How do I foster that?

Dolly: Well, there's a whole lot of reasons for me being the way that I am. First of all, I grew up in a family of 12 kids. I got six brothers and I got my five sisters. So, I've had every personality around me. And I've often said I've got some of everybody in my own immediate family, and in my family of employees. I've got gays, I've got lesbians, I've got trans, I've got alcoholics, I've got drug addicts. I've got some of everybody in my own family, so I naturally love them, accept them.

And I also have a spiritual background and think that it's not my place to judge. I'm not God. There is a God piece in all of us, and I try to find that in everybody – even the worst people, there’s something good in there. Maybe they didn't get a chance to be it. I understand that people that hate so much usually are the people that have never been loved enough.

Hayley: Totally. Of course.

Dolly: Or people that feel like they have to make a stand about something, whether it's right or wrong, they want to feel strong enough to be able to stand for something. But also you can't just get into things with other people just to be a follower.

In my own self, I just try to love people. I try to find the God light in everybody, and I try to let mine shine extra hard when I run up against that. But I have to be careful what I say. You know, whether it's good or bad or indifferent, I'm a pretty honest, open person. I can tell you where to put it if I don't like where you got it. That's when I say I often use my temper, but I seldom lose it.

Hayley: Oh! I needed to hear that today. Okay. That was my church.

Dolly: Well, you take that one. You can have it.

Hayley: Okay, I'm going to tattoo that on me.

Dolly: Like they say, there's never an excuse to be rude, but sometimes there's a reason. I'm 77 now and I've been in this business for 60-plus years. I've seen a lot, been through a lot, but I've still maintained. I've just tried to be myself. I was me, and me had to be what I drew from.

Hayley: Yeah, that’s also grace too.

Hayley: I would love to talk to you about your philanthropy, because it also speaks to your convictions about equity and about opportunity for people. When you're successful, when you have things – whether that's financially or otherwise – I don't even understand the point of it if you can't share it in some way. And you've done a great job of doing just that.

Dolly: I try to leave my heart open, and my ears and my eyes. My little Imagination Library, that came from a real place. That came from my own daddy, who couldn't read and write. I wanted to get daddy involved in something, just in our hometown. And then it grew and grew and became a wonderful thing, and my daddy got to live long enough to see it. I can get out and work endlessly on that charity that I love because it's personal to me.

Hayley: Right. It's so personal that it's not hard for you to stay consistent in it. That's something that I'm excited to get into. We're not going to be on a label soon, and we really want to be able to do more of that work and have more time for it. I’m really passionate about racial justice, but I don’t really know if another person needs another little white girl saying stuff about racial justice. I'd rather do something.

I love that you're still doing it. You said you try to not insert yourself into controversy, but it's really amazing that you've been able to support so many incredible causes and still find a way to unite people. Even when it's something that potentially not everyone agrees with. I know the Vanderbilt [University Medical Center] and COVID-19 vax – there's obviously so many people with so many different opinions on that.

Dolly: But at that time, see, I thought we could all be dead with a black plague. Nobody knew what was going on.

Hayley: Yeah, right. Nobody knew.

Dolly: So my heart said, “You need to do something.” So I thought, “What's the best thing for me to do? Let's try to find a vaccine or a cure for it.” Of course, I'm not trying to tell people to do it now, but you know, millions of people were spared. But of course, thousands had some reaction to it, so I’m not… But even knowing that, I’m still proud of what I did because my heart led me to do it.

Hayley: Totally. It's amazing, and I actually feel like, more than even just rock, you're actually so punk rock to me because you just don't give a shit. You do the things that you feel in your heart, and you love people, and you belong in any room because you belong to yourself.

So writing for this record, did you have anything in mind that changed the process for you since you knew you were kind of aiming towards a different sound?

Dolly: You know, all the rock bands that have been out there, it wasn't just the person that was in the band – the whole band had a personality. It was the personality of The Rolling Stones. It was the personality of The Beatles – which I was thrilled to death to get to sing with Paul and with Ringo. But the same with Fleetwood Mac. That group was the star. And the individuals had their quirks. It's like a family, it truly is.

Hayley: And so much of the best parts of it come from the tension and the friction.

Dolly: Exactly! And the creativity comes from that. If you don’t have the passion, your music is going to be lame, because that's how magic is created. So I just wanted to get into some of these bands when I was doing the rock ‘n’ roll. Joan Jett, prime example. When I wrote “Rockstar,” the title song, I was picturing her as a little girl wanting to be a rockstar. “I’m gonna be a rockstar, whether you two like it or not!” I was picturing her the whole time I was writing that song, how her young life might have been – trying to be a rockstar as a girl at that time?

Hayley: What a badass. I can't imagine!

Dolly: Then when I got to sing with her, she was so sweet. You'll love this, as a fellow artist, rocker. When I called her, I was going to do “I Love Rock ‘n’ Roll.” And I called her and I said, “Would you sing ‘I Love Rock ‘n’ Roll’ with me?” And she said, “No, but I'll sing ‘Hate Myself for Loving You.’”

Everybody can sing “I Love Rock ‘n’ Roll.” She said, “Oh, that one’s more you. Let’s sing that one, because it’s really got some meat to it.” So I thought, “Well, cool!” I mean, she's telling me what to do and I was glad! ‘Cause I was open to that. I love how it turned out. And she used her band, the Blackhearts.

Hayley: Yes! Oh, we love them.

Dolly: Just getting to sing with a lot of these classic people going back to their bands. Like Steve Perry, when I asked him to sing on “Open Arms.” Just getting to sing with all these classic people on these classic songs – if nothing else, whether it's a hit or not, it's a big hit with me to do it.

Hayley: Exactly. You can tell that you're having so much fun with it. The guys and I talk about this a lot, because we're right at the end of our contract that we've been in for almost 20 years now, and it's kind of like the doors are open again, almost like when we first started, and how do we redefine joy in the band? And I think that it really is just about following what gets you excited. You can just feel that you're loving this. I mean, the fact that you have 30 songs on it, I don't think you can say it better.

Dolly: I know that’s a lot, but I figured I'd never do another one and it’ll give me something to leave for my legacy.

Hayley: It just really makes me feel like, wow, we could do this as long as we want and there's so many possibilities.

Dolly: Well, you know, I think you're in a great spot. You want to do something different, but you’re still gonna be you. Just like with me! Do you think my country fans are going to leave me because I did a rock album?

Hayley: No!

Dolly: No. They know I'm a country girl, but they like that I am bold enough to do it. That I'm not scared of it. That's the thing that cripples most people in this business or in life: It's fear. But yeah, you've got the gift, you've got the talent, the personality.

Hayley: Aw, well, thank you.

Dolly: I wouldn't be that scared of it. I’ll come sing with you!

Hayley: Hell, yes! I would die!

Dolly: Maybe we can go on the road with my rock album and yours.

Hayley: Oh, I would kill [for that]!

Hayley: To me, women have the firmest foothold [in rock music], but I also think it's a tough genre, a very male dominated genre. So I wondered, “Was it about genre? Who is Dolly earning it for?”

Dolly: I wanted the rock world to accept it and appreciate me for doing it, for all those reasons. Like when I got to work with P!nk on “Satisfaction,” Brandi Carlile, and then Stevie Nicks – I had so many wonderful women. You know, Joan, and Stevie, and Blondie – Debbie Harry. That's another one.

Hayley: I mean, how have we not even talked about that?

Dolly: Well, there's so many of them! And Miley [Cyrus]!

Hayley: I mean, yours and Miley's voices are perfect together. You on this song, [“Wrecking Ball”], it feels like a song that you could have written.

Dolly: Well, I wish I had written that song. Miley, I'm crazy about. I don't think people even know how talented she is.

Hayley: Yes. I think what, unfortunately, people do is really underestimate based on presentation or based on the fact that she came from Disney. And she's already proven that she's got the chops: She’s a great singer, a writer.

Dolly: Actress. Comedian.

Hayley: Like, what more do you want?

Dolly: Her comedic timing I think is unbelievable. She's a great writer and that voice… I think she's the new, modern day rock chick. That thing that's got the grit and the soul and the sex appeal. She's got that voice when she can go down in that bourbon and cigarette voice, but she can also sing a song so delicate. I mean, she's just got everything she needs.

I just love Miley. I guess you can tell.

Hayley: Yeah, that's so sweet. Especially because it's really hard when you're in this business to find figures that are protective, that have wisdom beyond you because your experience is only so much. I feel like that is a real gift.

Dolly: Yeah. I agree.

Hayley: It's beautiful. This is the most random thing to bring up here, but the first time I did a therapy session that was going to be deeper, [my therapist] was like, "We're going to talk about some traumatic stuff, so you need to have a peaceful place you can go to, and you need to have a wisdom figure, a protective figure.” And you came into my mind!

Dolly: Ah! [Laughs]

Hayley: I was like, “Dolly Parton, in the woods…”

Dolly: What was I doing in the woods?!

Hayley: You were protecting me! I don’t know! [Laughs]

Dolly: Did I have my high heels on? Just how well was I protecting you with my high heels on?

Hayley: Yeah, you looked amazing! Like no one else could. We were sitting by the creek just talking. But I noticed in an interview that you actually talked about a peaceful place for you, this church that you used to go to as a kid. Was it a real place with the graffiti on the walls?

Dolly: Yeah. I wrote a song called “God, Sex and Music” because of that very spot.

Hayley: That's your peaceful place! Because you said you can conjure it up in your mind and go there any time. That's so powerful. I feel like that's an interesting thing too, about being from the South. There's these places that really contradict themselves, like a church that has pornographic imagery graffitied on the wall. And that being your…

Dolly: Well, that was an old, abandoned church. Let’s clarify that.

Hayley: [Laughs, jumps out of chair]

Dolly: That's not the church I go to! [Laughs] Don’t you ruin my reputation! I mean, that’s not my church. That was an old, abandoned church, and people would go there to drink because it was up in the woods. People are gonna think, “What kind of religion is this? I want to join! Hallelujah!” [Laughs]

Hayley: “Dolly goes to this really cool church!” [Laughs] Oh, that kills me! You're right, I did not include the most important part: It was abandoned. It just really took me by surprise when the first person that I thought of was you, but I think it's to your point: I do think that you've had enough experience, been in the public eye long enough, people do kind of view you as someone that they know a lot better than they do.

Meanwhile, you have such an incredible way of protecting your own peace and protecting your personal life. I'm fascinated by that because I've also been in the public eye since I was a teenager, and it's just really so, so easy to lose your identity. And I think you're such a beacon of holding on to that, and people see that. People want to know how to do that, all the time, because everybody feels lost.

Dolly: We all do, at times.

Hayley: Yeah, it's really incredible what you can represent for people just by being the person that you are and not trying to be more than that. I think that that's the lesson to me, that actions speak louder than words. I feel like I'm learning that from you.

Dolly: Well, thank you. Come to my church and we'll talk more about it. [Laughs] Well, that's a great compliment. I appreciate it. Mostly, be true to yourself. My mama told me that when I was young and starting out on my own. She said, “Just be true to you.” And that statement says a lot more than just the words. I said in a book I wrote one time, “Find out who you are and do it on purpose.” That’s what that’s about; be as true to that as you can. We all fail, we all fall. Nobody’s perfect. The only perfect person was nailed to a cross, so how perfect can we be, right?

In my mind, you just do your very best. And you've done all right, I gotta say.

Hayley: Well, thank you. I appreciate it.

Dolly: Well, I forgot we was even doing an interview! I was just enjoying talking to you.

Hayley: Me too! Thank you so much.

Dolly Parton's Rockstar arrives on November 17th. Pre-orders are ongoing.